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The Bitcoin thread

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I keep procrastinating this bitcoin thing.

 

It is wise to evaluate things properly...if you do want to get in, I would suggest doing it slow, maybe a small amount over time, averaging your cost, and reducing your risk. I personally find bitcoin fun. Its fun trading, its fun speculating, its fun learning about how it all works...I enjoy demonstrating it to people who only really see how cool it is when they try to use it.

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To truly learn about bitcoin you must buy at least R1000 of it and once invested you will find yourself following its news and developments since it impacts your back pocket and you will be emotionally invested.

 

If a once in 20 yr disruptive technology appears in your investing timeline and is doubling in value each year you might be remiss not to be involved at the very least on a junior position like R500 or R1000. I've thrown R100k into BTC over last 3yrs it's worth 3 times that now and also generating R20k pm passive income. Just as with a ten bagger share you never get to this position if you don't get into the game early enough, make the mistakes and learn the ropes.

 

You don't have to be early just early enough. Despite heady prices BTC is still in early stages. But it suffers early stage risk just like any budding 10 bagger share. Bitcoin could blow up and go all to hell at any time so whatever you invest you must be prepared to lose.

 

There is also lots of volatility in BTC and it's a strong candidate for trend following algorithms both of which combined  can make trading it both simple and profitable. The simplest of strategies currently involves buying BTC whenever it's under $1000 and selling whenever it's above $1200

 

Mining is profitable but not if you import gear and mine yourself. The electricity costs dont make it worth it and having a piece of hardware that sounds like a boeing 24x7 in your house is not ideal. Cloud mining currently can yield 9% per month at current BTC of $1,200. You read right - per month. Continuation of these gains will require more BTC inflation each year, at least 40% per annum I would estimate since difficulty of mining is increasing all the time as more hashpower is added to the network. I can say this as i have imported gear and mined at least 18 months as well as been running cloud mining for 1 year. The trick is to find the 5 of 100 cloudminers that are not scams or ponzi schemes. And if you find the 5 you need to find the 1 that makes it worthwhile. And there is only one, but youre going to have to find that out yourself as its part of the learning experience.

 

Proper bitcoin investing is obviously far more sophisticated than simply holding the coin or simply making a few buy on the dip trades. A proper strategy involves owning the coin, trading it and mining it - but given 1 to 2 yrs involvement you will figure it out soon enough if you are committed.

 

If like me you find it technologically fascinating and learning it becomes like a hobby you are enjoying then financial reward will be the natural byproduct as opposed to the pursued one. Pretty much like anything in life.

 

BTC is just another asset class along with your shares, gold, listed property and bonds. But being revolutionary it offers higher reward/risk ratios. There are also some very particular benefits it offers South Africans (protection from the Rands inevitable decline of 6~10% per annum being one) but unless you play the game you won't figure those out

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using the Platinum Wealth mobile app

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We normally advise people NOT to get involved with bitcoin mining, especially cloud mining, because of the extremely high amount of scams and ponzi schemes, and new people really dont know enough to make a profit.

 

I don't think it is a good idea to introduce even more risk to something that is already quite high risk, especially if you have very little knowledge of bitcoin, trading bitcoin, mining and crypto currency in general. The bitcoin price is extremely volatile, and most new users who start what they think is 'mining bitcoin', get taken for a ride. Most cloud mining is either not that profitable, or if it is very profitable, is either a ponzi scheme / scam, or the earnings are not all mining, but boosted by signing up other users to the scheme as joining fees, contract fees, mining pool fees or similar which are paid as an income to the introducer.

 

Almost every time, the best bitcoin investment has been to simply buy bitcoin, and hold onto it as the price goes up over time. By doing that, you do not have to risk dodgy companies that might scam your, or schemes that might collapse. If they are legitimate, you also don't have to worry about mining difficulty increases or how long it will be before your profit dries up, and if you will break even. You dont have to worry about mining hardware failure, electricity prices and power failures, internet connectivity issues, or even where to put your miners and the noise they generate.

 

On average the mining difficulty that changes every 2 weeks goes up about 4% compounding, so depending on what you pay for electricity, and maintenance, your profit will go to zero at some point. Most mining hardware has a lifespan of about 10 to 12 months before it stops making a profit.

 

If the price of bitcoin is soaring, mining hardware and mining contracts can go for longer, as they are more profitable with the price increase. They mine less bitcoin because the difficulty is going up, but the bitcoin is worth more, so they are still profitable.

 

Almost always, if you look at the amount you would spend on mining equipment, or cloud mining, and either bought bitcoin instead and just held onto it, you will have been in a better position to have just bought bitcoin. Your total amount of bitcoin mined would most of the time be less that the amount you started with because of the difficulty increases meaning you get less and less bitcoin for your mining.

 

By continuously re-investing, many people simply kick the can to break even further down the road. Yes, you are making money if you convert the bitcoin to Rand and bitcoin has gone up in price, so you see profits, but if you had simply invested all that money in the beginning into bitcoin, most of the time you would have more bitcoin. If you just buy bitcoin and hold onto it, you can also trade it and exit the market quickly if you need to, like if the price is going down, to cut your losses and take profit. By investing in cloud mining and bitcoin mining equipment, your money is 'locked in', you cannot quickly get your money back. You are down in bitcoin or Rand until such time as you have got back ALL the bitcoin or Rand that you have invested in total, including ongoing running costs...until that time, you are at a loss, and only profit once you have exceeded and withdrawn more than you ever put in.

 

@Dwaine van Vuuren - Maybe you have been very lucky and had very special conditions and the expertise to make it work for you, well done and good luck going forward, but for people new to bitcoin, I say "stay away".

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So are the guys that own some bitcoin still holding on or starting to think about taking some profits? Bitcoin has seen quite a rise over the last few days with some guys saying it will hit $1400 while others say it will soon correct it self and have a short term drop.

 

I traded some bitcoins for Ether a few days ago and boy, Ether is having quite a rally the last day or two. Up over 24% in just the last 24hours. Cannot decide if I should buy more Ether or Bitcoins at the moment. Maybe trade more Bitcoins for Ether and then trade back to Bitcoin once Ether stalls or drop? MMM, decisions, decisions....:-)

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So are the guys that own some bitcoin still holding on or starting to think about taking some profits? Bitcoin has seen quite a rise over the last few days with some guys saying it will hit $1400 while others say it will soon correct it self and have a short term drop.

 

I traded some bitcoins for Ether a few days ago and boy, Ether is having quite a rally the last day or two. Up over 24% in just the last 24hours. Cannot decide if I should buy more Ether or Bitcoins at the moment. Maybe trade more Bitcoins for Ether and then trade back to Bitcoin once Ether stalls or drop? MMM, decisions, decisions....:-)

 

I am holding for the long term, and increasing my holdings whenever possible. I do use bitcoin whenever possible, and when I do that, I normally try to replace what I spent.

If I need money for something important, I will dip into my bitcoin holdings to be able to spend what I need to. If bitcoin is going to be worth a lot in the future, just a small amount will be "enough"....so spending it now, and growing the bitcoin economy etc is not too much of a big deal for me, as long as I keep my main stash for that rainy day in the future :)

Almost all altcoins are completely useless to holders, and overpriced because of that fact. Speculating on them is even more risky than bitcoin, and a huge gamble that can pay off big time, or ruin you. I stay away from them, I have been burned in the past, and learned my lesson. Its all fun and games until you get wiped out. Sure, on paper, and in the future, there are lots of things planned for a bunch of altcoins, but so far, they have no real value to me, and are basically useless to the people who hold them. Most people only have them for one reason, and that is to speculate and try to make money trading, which can end badly.

At least I can and do use bitcoin regularly, and it is immediately useful to people who have it, while that is not really the case for almost all besides a handful of other crypto currencies.

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What an informative thread, I have been reading it for the past while. I will test the waters, with some small amounts and then look to put some funds in monthly.

I am sure to have a few questions and bitcoinzar.co.za looks like a great resource.

My first question is can you earn interest on bitcoin?

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Very interesting thread with some knowledgeable people. Personally, although always on the look out to make a quick buck, because there is no way to estimate the value of a bitcoin, it's hard to make a case for it as an investment. It's up there with gold as a speculative "bet", but gold has thousands of years history and is accepted at country level as a store of wealth.

 

That said, could see a spot for it in a trading portfolio when using technical analysis, nice volatility.

 

My point is, I think people should be very weary of treating it as a long term investment (even putting is as part of your cash holdings) - it's not buy and forget. Use it to trade, and therefore use trading rules, not investment rules.

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What an informative thread, I have been reading it for the past while. I will test the waters, with some small amounts and then look to put some funds in monthly.

I am sure to have a few questions and bitcoinzar.co.za looks like a great resource.

My first question is can you earn interest on bitcoin?

 

No, you cant really earn interest on your bitcoin....kind of the same way as having some gold in your safe at home does not earn you interest in gold.

 

There are many schemes that promise 'interest' if you just 'invest' your bitcoin with them....they are almost always scams, ponzi / pyramid / MLM schemes that ultimately crash and burn. Stay away from them....

 

Bitcoin is person to person, open source and decentralized. There is no bitcoin company, or person in charge that you can call to 'undo' a bitcoin transaction. Once you pay your bitcoin to an 'investment' website, or anyone in fact, that transaction is permanent. If the person or website you send bitcoin to as an investment fails to pay out, or just takes your money, there is not a hell of a lot you can do.

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No, you cant really earn interest on your bitcoin....kind of the same way as having some gold in your safe at home does not earn you interest in gold.

 

There are many schemes that promise 'interest' if you just 'invest' your bitcoin with them....they are almost always scams, ponzi / pyramid / MLM schemes that ultimately crash and burn. Stay away from them....

 

Bitcoin is person to person, open source and decentralized. There is no bitcoin company, or person in charge that you can call to 'undo' a bitcoin transaction. Once you pay your bitcoin to an 'investment' website, or anyone in fact, that transaction is permanent. If the person or website you send bitcoin to as an investment fails to pay out, or just takes your money, there is not a hell of a lot you can do.

 

 

I already own some Bitcoins and love trading them. Its fine to talk about peer 2 peer and those goods things, but what I still cannot get my mind around is what can I buy with Bitcoins. They are not accepted widely as a payment mechanism for "stuff" (read goods and services) on sites like Takealot.com  etc. ?

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I already own some Bitcoins and love trading them. Its fine to talk about peer 2 peer and those goods things, but what I still cannot get my mind around is what can I buy with Bitcoins. They are not accepted widely as a payment mechanism for "stuff" (read goods and services) on sites like Takealot.com  etc. ?

 

If I am not mistaken takealot now accepts bitcoin.

 

Naspers owns Luno if I recall correctly, and Naspers owns takealot so they added the whole bitcoin payment option.

 

(I'm speaking under correction, bitcoinzar will need to interfene here)

 

But ultimately you are right when it comes to South Africa we are a bit behind in terms of cryptocurreincies as tender, but overseas bitcoin is widely accepted so that should funnel down to us.

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Sorry for being a bit blonde but, where does Pay Fast fit in ?

 

This girls has Bitcoins and wants 2 shop  ;-)

 

Pay Fast is a South African Payment Gateway - They enable merchants like Takealot to accept Mastercard/VISA as well as Bitcoin, so technically you should be able to buy with bitcoin from any store that uses PayFast.

 

Assuming this is up to date: https://www.payfast.co.za/online-merchants-who-use-payfast/

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How high will bitcoin go? Will it breach R30k mark? It has proved it with R10K & R20K.[NECKTIE]

 

Sent from my A1013R using Tapatalk

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How high will bitcoin go? Will it breach R30k mark? It has proved it with R10K & R20K.[NECKTIE]

 

Sent from my A1013R using Tapatalk

 

Here's an info graphic (price projection/guess at the bottom.)

 

Infographic_ZA_FINAL_1200.thumb.jpg.aeea1fad43595215888d1d8383774d46.jpg

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I already own some Bitcoins and love trading them. Its fine to talk about peer 2 peer and those goods things, but what I still cannot get my mind around is what can I buy with Bitcoins. They are not accepted widely as a payment mechanism for "stuff" (read goods and services) on sites like Takealot.com  etc. ?

 

Finding places that will take bitcoin for payment is still quite rare offline in S.A., but there are some places that do. Online I think all of payfast's customers (over 30k) have the option to accept bitcoin for payment, and get Rand into their bank account. So payfast customers never see the bitcoin, they just get the Rand as usual in their bank.

 

If you are iching to spend your bitcoin, you could also get yourself a bitcoin debit card, which works like a normal VISA debit card in all stores that accept VISA, except that you fund it with your bitcoin. The merchant never sees the bitcoin, they take the payment and get Rand as usual and never know the difference. You on the other hand get to spend your bitcoin anywhere VISA / Mastercard is accepted in the real world, or even online.

 

I used mine extensively while traveling overseas when Standard Bank decided to cut off my credit card while I was abroad. Being 12 hours ahead, and having to call S.A. to fix the problem was a no-go because, well, you know what its like trying to phone a bank. My bitcoin debit card on the other hand worked like a charm, and saved the day.

 

Do you accept bitcoin for payment? We have a small business directory of people who accept bitcoin directly, so that is not via PayFast. If you will accept bitcoin for payment, then you can get a free listing for your business here: https://www.bitcoinzar.co.za/south-africa-bitcoin-business-directory/

Any businesses that accept bitcoin directly are welcome to get a free listing. Email [email protected] for details if you are keen.

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How high will bitcoin go? Will it breach R30k mark? It has proved it with R10K & R20K.[NECKTIE]

 

Sent from my A1013R using Tapatalk

 

I believe it will, and surpass it....when that will be, nobody knows. It might be this year, or in 5 years, but I think that the rate of new users increasing in bitcoin is a huge factor.

There is an increase in financial uncertainty, and people are looking for ways to move and store money, out of the banks. This is a problem bitcoin solves. You can actually watch the price of bitcoin locally spike on bitcoin exchanges when big announcements are made about the Rand. As the Rand starts dropping, bitcoin surges.

This is also happening world wide, especially in places like India, Venezuela, Brazil, China to name a few.

 

Combine that demand growth, which has grown dramatically, and will continue to grow, with the daily production of bitcoin that is cut in half, every 4 years, and things get interesting. Today only 12.5 bitcoins are made every 10 minutes, and in 3 years time that will be cut to 6.25 every 10min.

 

There has been a huge increase in value since the last 'halving' in 2016 from 25 bitcoins every 10min to 12.5.

 

Just to recap those who dont know. There will never be more than 21 000 000 bitcoin, ever.

As of right now, there are already 16,308,725

Every day 1,728 are created (12.5 every 10min), until the next halving, when that is cut in half.

Current inflation rate is 3.94%, after the next halving, it will be 1.73%.

 

So, my guess is that unless something happens and bitcoin fails, the price will far surpass 30k ZAR

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I already own some Bitcoins and love trading them. Its fine to talk about peer 2 peer and those goods things, but what I still cannot get my mind around is what can I buy with Bitcoins. They are not accepted widely as a payment mechanism for "stuff" (read goods and services) on sites like Takealot.com  etc. ?

 

I did a google search of where you can spend you bitcoins:

 

http://bitcoinhub.co.za/sites-that-accept-bitcoin-payments-in-south-africa/

https://www.payfast.co.za/2015/06/05/10-awesome-places-to-spend-bitcoin-in-south-africa/

https://www.luno.com/blog/en/post/south-africa-pay-with-bitcoin

 

Please note that some of the articles area bit old, and caution must be used whentrading with unknown websites. :)

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Is Luno good for "day trading" bitcoin? Is this what is was designed for or more just a wallet? Where would the best place be to start experimenting?

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Is Luno good for "day trading" bitcoin? Is this what is was designed for or more just a wallet? Where would the best place be to start experimenting?

 

Luno is good for trading. The wallet is good, but...in general its not good to store you bitcoin in a bitcoin exchange. The wallet they provide links to your account in the exchange, and you dont get the private keys, so while it is pretty secure...I personally store my bitcoin off their exchange and wallet.

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Ouch, almost all of the past days gains wiped out in about 30 min. :-0. Down $110 in the last hour, but see that it is gaining some back again as I type this.

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Ouch, almost all of the past days gains wiped out in about 30 min. :-0. Down $110 in the last hour, but see that it is gaining some back again as I type this.

 

it is a fast moving market, risky business...this is why it is advisable to buy small amounts regularly, over a long period of time, instead of going 'all in' with one high volume trade.

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Just a question, if you can use Luno to trade, why does the charts only show up to 30 minutes? and it seems very basic too. Does one use a site such as Tradingview in conjunction with Luno?

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